Proper Passing

[chopt]

I think I made an offensive pass our last track day and would like to make definitive guidelines for C. The rules are; C group passing allowed in straights only, passing anywhere in A and B. I'm wanting to clearly define passing in C to help our learning curve for when we move up to B. My thinking is defining when it's safe and not safe to pass.
-at the end of the straight if you can not get safely around the passed rider in an upright position DO NOT continue with the pass.
or
-no passing on the inside, the inside being when the lead rider initiates their turn-in we are to wait until they exit the turn.

I need ya'll to chime in here and not only for C if you feel there's precautions I can add to the other groups I want to hear them also. Wanting to make this an extremely safe track day organization.

chopt

[BigJohnD]

Fuck em...boot the front tire as you go by...that'll learn em.

[miniTHUMPA]

I remember a couple times in C when I was at the end of the straight going into turn 1 and I already started a pass and then we started leaning in I had no choice but to continue or it would have ended up bad.

[chopt]

mini sorry to use this as an example but, this was a NO pass situation. I made a similar pass only we weren't at turn in but extremely close to it. Since we aren't racing, we need to remain courteous, yours and my situations could have spooked the other rider causing them to miss their turn in causing an accident. Thankfully for us, the latter didn't happen. I do not want these situations to arise and feel that properly defining what's acceptable and not will eliminate this indesive thinking achieving safe track days. If anyone feels/can suggest a more productive way to handle this, please chime in.

[miniTHUMPA]

I wasnt offering a way to avoid this I was just informing that sometimes its better to just make to the pass than to lock up the brakes and avoid "spooking" someone. IF i had a choice to "spook" someone or crash well sorry new guy youre getting spooked. I would avoid a crash at any cost. But when someone on a slower bike tries to pass someone who is slower than they are in the straight but that person just to be an ass speeds up because they have a faster bike then they deserve it.

[chopt]

It is the bike making the pass' responsibility to see to it it is a clean pass on the straights in C group. I will see to it this will be closely monitored and if a rider such as yourself is skilled enough to move up to the next group. The move will be mandatory or you(generally speaking) will abide by the rules of the slower group you choose to ride in. C group is for novice riders either wanting to sharpen their street skills, get their feet wet for racing or the "newby" who wants to learn how to ride a bike for the first time.
This has to be remembered and always given consideration, these are track days not races.

[Shaq Diesel]

It is the bike making the pass' responsibility to see to it it is a clean pass on the straights in C group. I will see to it this will be closely monitored and if a rider such as yourself is skilled enough to move up to the next group. The move will be mandatory or you(generally speaking) will abide by the rules of the slower group you choose to ride in. C group is for novice riders either wanting to sharpen their street skills, get their feet wet for racing or the "newby" who wants to learn how to ride a bike for the first time.
This has to be remembered and always given consideration, these are track days not races.

Playing devil's advocate...

You mentioned that C group is composed, as the majority, of riders who are new. A lot of times, riders need to experience and learn when they need to be aggressive and when the need to be passive about passing in the straights. It's easy to distinguish as you exit the corner onto the straight, you pin the throttle and don't rear-end the guy in front of you. But if you have someone on a faster bike (as a 1000cc) who is coming up on someone on a slower bike at the mid or near the end of the curve, it takes a good bit of experience for the faster rider to know when he/she can safely begin, and execute, the pass.

If they end up in that "Oh crap I gotta turn in and I haven't fully passed this other rider yet" scenario then what Minithumpa is saying holds weight. Statistically, it is better for that rider to finish the pass, even if it goes into the curve and violates the "no passing in the corners" rule than for them to lock up the brakes and run/crash off course, possibly taking out the other rider who'll be probably scared shitless that all this is happening next to them. It is much easier for a new rider to deal with a bike passing on the outside occassionally than the alternative scenario.

You can warn people to look out for that but this is a part of the learning curve. If someone is doing it consistently then yes, they deserve a frank promotion to B-group. But as a one-off event it might be something that you just have to live with as people are learning to get faster. Just something to think about...

[chopt]

Thanks Stu for chiming in. I agree, there's always going to be extraordinary circumstances and I plan to forewarn everyone of proper riding etiquette. It is the more advanced/experienced/skilled riders that should always be courteous as they have the upper-hand on the track. In Mini's situation, he was obviously behind the rider in the previous turn and realized he couldn't out-power him/her before turn 1 and out braked them possibly causing them to run wide/deeper. He should have pit'd in to let that rider get ahead. I will address this in my meeting stating if you know a bike is gaining on you to safely allow them bye. That is what the SOLID BLUE or BLUE w/ YELLOW strip flag was for that everyone was not familiar with, it's to notify you/us of a faster rider appraoching. I also feel that making us carefully gauge the rider in front of us for a pass will help us be safer riders when we move up. Not to sound like an a-hat but, are we supposed to have our passing techniques mastered before moving up? Isn't riding in B group where we hone these skills. Should I create a D group for the very inexperienced? I would like to know this because my wife wants her own bike and the track is where I want her to get her experience. In C group I would not want ANYONE passing her on the inside as she WILL not know how to handle it.

I'll repeat myself I know there will always be extraordinary circumstances, if you committ an offense and have reasonable justification, it will be ok.
But when someone on a slower bike tries to pass someone who is slower than they are in the straight but that person just to be an ass speeds up because they have a faster bike then they deserve it. This statement is not justifiable. I am not picking on Mini, I'm using his post as an example. The faster bike should have allowed the pass and hopefully my words ring loudly in my meeting.

[Shaq Diesel]

Thanks Stu for chiming in. I agree, there's always going to be extraordinary circumstances and I plan to forewarn everyone of proper riding etiquette. It is the more advanced/experienced/skilled riders that should always be courteous as they have the upper-hand on the track. In Mini's situation, he was obviously behind the rider in the previous turn and realized he couldn't out-power him/her before turn 1 and out braked them possibly causing them to run wide/deeper. He should have pit'd in to let that rider get ahead. I will address this in my meeting stating if you know a bike is gaining on you to safely allow them bye. That is what the SOLID BLUE or BLUE w/ YELLOW strip flag was for that everyone was not familiar with, it's to notify you/us of a faster rider appraoching. I also feel that making us carefully gauge the rider in front of us for a pass will help us be safer riders when we move up. Not to sound like an a-hat but, are we supposed to have our passing techniques mastered before moving up? Isn't riding in B group where we hone these skills. Should I create a D group for the very inexperienced? I would like to know this because my wife wants her own bike and the track is where I want her to get her experience. In C group I would not want ANYONE passing her on the inside as she WILL not know how to handle it.

I'll repeat myself I know there will always be extraordinary circumstances, if you committ an offense and have reasonable justification, it will be ok. This statement is not justifiable. I am not picking on Mini, I'm using his post as an example. The faster bike should have allowed the pass and hopefully my words ring loudly in my meeting.

You might want to look at defining what you want the groups to be, and what you want them to accomplish. If left to their own vices, people will push to their own limit until it is broken. What that limit is varies for different people. You also have to take into account the number of groups and the amount of riding time each group will get.

[chopt]

You also have to take into account the number of groups and the amount of riding time each group will get.

I didn't think about the time constraints until after I typed my post. You're right, there's not enough time for adding another group. This goes back to a previous post stating I expect for the more experienced riders in the group that has more control to be extra courteous. I hope my thinking isn't imposing or stepping on toes, my intentions are to make this an enjoyable expereince for EVERYONE.

[Shaq Diesel]

I didn't think about the time constraints until after I typed my post. You're right, there's not enough time for adding another group. This goes back to a previous post stating I expect for the more experienced riders in the group that has more control to be extra courteous. I hope my thinking isn't imposing or stepping on toes, my intentions are to make this an enjoyable expereince for EVERYONE.

I agree with you on that point. But the kicker is that the experienced riders are going to be the ones that know they shouldn't try to start a pass near the end of the straight since they realize that 9 times out of 10 they probably won't make it around the rider ahead of them before the corner. It's the inexperienced riders that you have to worry about.

You just have to find a way to engrain in them that it's better to try passing at the beginning of the straight instead of the end.

[SimplyOrange]

This is more of an issue when the new rider on the 600cc bike is being tailed through every curve by a 250 or another 600ccbike then as soon as it is straight the slow rider nails it, i have trouble passing a 600cc bike in the small straights on my liter bike, im sure its alot harder on an equal sized bike.but the main rule is the passer is responsible for making a safe non-spooked pass in C group.if it is frustrating then move to B. i have had riders spook themselves because i was making a pass and realized i couldnt make it and they grabbed brake right before the next turn causing me to jet around the outside when i had planned to follow them through the curve after realizing i wouldnt make the pass. i think holding a steady speed is a good practice, dont punch out in the straight if you dont plan to carry that speed into the next curve.

[chopt]

I will say this, my next riders meeting will be WAY more structured than my first. And hopefully if anyone commits an offense they'll have a reasonable excuse and hopefully it doesn't cause an accident. I didn't mean to single-out the experienced riders laying all the responsibility on them. WE all need to take responsibility for our riding, if an experienced rider see's someone committing an offense they should report it to me as I'll have 1 to 2 control riders in C looking out too. It's a group effort, with this in mind we should rarely have a problem hopefully not ever.

[zachattack15]

Im not a fan of the passing flags. In A and B group I expect the other riders to hold their lines and make safe passes when they feel comfortable. I dont need to know someone is coming from behind me nor does someone in front of me need to worry about me passing them. If I pass im going to make sure its safe and im confident in the pass. All they need to do is hold their line and be predictable.

[chopt]

Zach I undersatand A and B group don't need notification, these corner workers were trained to use those and other flags were not accustom to during our track days. That being said, they will use them. I hope that isn't too much of a nuisance for you guys. I personaly think it's a good idea to use them in C, correct me if I'm wrong. I also posted all the flags and their meanings in my last update ontop of we will explain them in our riders meeting.

AND no Smurf, there will be no divers on the track.:Tazer2:

[SimplyOrange]

one problem with the flags that me and zach have witnessed is when a new rider knows you are approaching they tend to look back to see the coming rider,this could be a problem when they do it in a curve or start slowing down to look back when you are on thier tail about to punch out in the next straight to get past them.i think the pass is the sole responsibility of the passing bike, the one being passed should not have to put any though towards the process other than not making any rapid speed decrease.

[chopt]

That's understood, I'll make it a point in the meeting to not look back it is only notifying you of a faster rider approaching. Like I said you guys in A and B are already experienced enough to hold your lines, some of us in C group still need to learn this. I feel it's a helpful tool in speeding up our learning curve.

[Shaq Diesel]

In C-group, a majority of the passing is done on the straights. Do you really need flags to let people know that someone is coming past you on the straight? I only mention this because depending on how large C-group is during the next Track Day I have a feeling these flags are going to be waved a lot and quite frankly their meaning might be dulled. [ This will be largely because C-group has the largest discrepancy in the skill level of riders (from beginning newb to seasoned rider).

When you get the typical "conga line" (a group of people stuck behind a slower bike waiting for a straighaway to pass them) those poor corner workers are gonna be waving their arms off at the inevitable.The passing flags are good for races, where a slower rider can affect the payout of a faster rider. But as Zach and Jarrod mentioned, if you need a flag to tell you someone is coming behind you and to hold your line, your probably shouldn't be in B or A group. Holding your line is one of the key things you should be learning in C-group that will make you much safer in track days and racing.
I'm not saying this to say you need to do away with the flags. But you don't want to have the flags as a crutch for new riders so that they avoid learning the key elements necessary for continued enjoyment in track days

[chopt]

Stu, you make a very valid point. CGB is supplying the corner workers for now and mentioned they would like to use all the flags they have available. I mentioned the flags normaly used at our trackdays and he stated if nothing else he would like for us to know their meanings. I agree with everyone that's responded to this thread about only using the normal flags. And thanks to this thread, this is another obstacle I'll work on and have resolved before our next track day.

[Busaboyfromindy]

Not to sound negative but me any my little brother are gonna make it out this Saturday, I would love to come out and have a good time as in the past with TTD, but I hope to GOD that I don't have to listen to this bitching and moaning about every little thing. I do understand that safety is a top priority, but there wasn't drama like this with TTD. I like to again support track days , in the past I didn't miss one in a year and a half. See everyone Saturday and let's just be safe and ride hard.........

[BigJohnD]

Holy shit...you fuckers are serious about this shit.

[chopt]

Rest assure Busa, the dramas only on the forum. I look forward to meeting you tomorrow.
chopt

[I_FLY_LOW]

Should I untape my blinkers and headlight, use my signals, and flash my highbeams, prior to passing? maybe blow my horn too? you know, for safety n all... lol

[BigJohnD]

Should I untape my blinkers and headlight, use my signals, and flash my highbeams, prior to passing? maybe blow my horn too? you know, for safety n all... lol

Boot to the front tire on the way by...they will get the hint...